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Radius Estimation of VV Cep´s disk

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daliahmaus's picture
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Radius Estimation of VV Cep´s disk

Dear colleagues,

I would like to ask, whether there is a certain interest in a campaign to estimate or calculate the radius of the accretion disk of VV Cep.

High resolved Halpha spectra, how they are currently received by different observers, do provide the opportunity in August this year, to perform such high interesting goal.

At the beginning of the eclipse, we could observe, the different beginning of the decrease of the intensity of the Halpha emission components V and R. Based on radial velocity measurements of the central absorption core of Halpha, one could calculate the effective radius of the accretion disk of the B companion.

The enclosed Fig. decribes the equivalent widths of the violet (filled circles) and red (opne circles) component of the Halpha emission as function of the Julian Date.

This had been done in the past by Möllenhoff & Schaifers 1978 & 1981, A&A 64, 253-258 and A&A 94, 333-337, and by Kawabata et al. 1981, Publ. Astron. Soc. Japan, 33, 177-188.

It would be great, if this interesting aspect in observation of VV Cep would get a certain attention.

Ernst Pollmann

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Nice idea

Hi Ernst, nice idea not that I have tried observations in August before as it never gets really dark. 

What is the minimum resolution required and how often are spectra needed?

Thanks Andrew

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Minimum resolving power

Hi Andrew,

I think, the minimum resolving power should be around 12000. I don't know your location,  but at the beginning of August during midnight is the star near zenith and it should be possible to take spectra.

Ernst

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Ok Ernst

Just a bit to high for my R ~ 9000 echelle. I am not sure I will finish the R ~ 20000 in time but if I do I will join in. I am sure some LHires III users will join you.

Regards Andrew

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Interesting

That is an interesting campaign Ernst.

I'd like to get involved if I can, though my own observing has been significantly curtailed this year due to other commitments. If things settle down over the Spring/Summer then I'll add it to my target list so that I can contribute.

Best wishes,

Andy

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Long base line before the eclipse

Hi Andy, it would be really great if you could contribute with your spectra to that campaign. But you have to know, it will be fairly important to get a sufficiently long baseline before the eclipse of the V and R component, in order to determine precisely enough the intensity decrease of the emissions.

Ernst

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Long base line before the eclipse

Hi Ernst,

Thanks for the information which is useful to know. I'll try to get an observing session in soon on VV Cep. If that doesn't work out then I may use my limited observing time on Be stars which are well suited to an occasional spectrum when time allows.

Best wishes,

Andy

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Radius Estimation of VV Cep´s disk

  Dear Ernst,

   Very interesting campaign, which could be abbreviated as VV CEC 2017-19.

 For this year observation highlights are the first contact,  expected around August 4th and the second contact around October 27th. For the period July/August/September the constellation will be well placed to do HR (R>10.000) spectroscopy. So I could  already do some preliminary tests to check the baseline behaviour with a LHIRES and also a SQUES echelle spectrograph. Currently we are in the middle of garden/observatory renovations, so I hope my observatory will be fully operational again in the first part of May.

 I wondered if there is (or will be) a video animation/computer simulation  available to show the movements of both components of VV Cephei together with an impression of the movements of the accretion disk based on the actual knowledge?

Kind regards,

Marc.

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vv cep

Ernst,

My baseline of observations start from 2105-08-26 to date, a long term study, I intend to contribute scientifically useful data.

Regards,

Jack

Essex UK 

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VV Cep 2017-19

Dear Marc, your possibilities to start at the beginning of May with high resolved observations sounds really good. I would be really happy, if you could contribute with such a kind of spectra. The more spectra we collect, the more precisely would be the estimation, of the time differences of the V and R eclipse. Probably I will be able to take my first spectra at the earliest in the middle of May. I designed an animation for an object related seminar in May at the University of the city of Wuppertal, in order to demonstrate in priciple the process of the eclipse. But unfortunately is not allowed to upload ppt files here. If you are interested, I could send it via email.

Ernst

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VV CEC 2017-19

 That's excellent news, Ernst, I'm certainly interested in such an animation ppt. You can send it by email, of course. Many thanks in advance ! 

 A good idea could be to prepare already an upload corner in the BAA Spectroscopy Database? Or, if you have another proposal you prefer? 

Kind regards,

Marc

 

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VV CEC 2017-19

Hi Marc, there is already an upload opportunity for VV Cep at the database. I think it's not necessary to creat another one. Please send me your email adress for sending the ppt file. You can find my email adress at my website:

http://www.astrospectroscopy.de

Ernst

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VV Cep 2017-19

Hi Jack, I think every high resolved Halpha spectrum from now, will be a benefit for the campaign.

Ernst

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Ernst,

Ernst,

My last observation was on 2017-04-01.

Regards,

Jack

Essex UK

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Base line preparing

Jack, I'm preparing at present a plot of the time behavior of the peak height & equivalent width of the V and R component, in order to get a first impression of the baseline. The last measurement in that plot is from Februar 22th this year. So it would be great, if you could offer your spectrum soon to supplement the base line.

Ernst

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looking for base line

Dear colleagues, I have tried, from spectra of different observers to find base lines of the Halpha emission components V & R out of eclipse. At least the peak heights of both seems to provide a good chance to determine the exact beginning of the eclipse. The dispersion of the measurements comes from the "natural" activities of mass transfer from the M2 super giant into the B star disk (EW & V/R variability). Comments are welcome!

Ernst

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looking for base line

 Indeed, Ernst, the trend of the peak heights "best fitting curve" seems to be a converging one. Perhaps it could also be a shadowing effect as a result of periodically higher mass transfer, (even cyclic ?). Anyway from "57700" a more significant trend is developing. One could also make a plot of V against R and compare it to the same for the EW's.

Looks very promising! Nice work!

BTW, interesting programs to study ecliptic binaries are: BinSim:  http://www.phys.lsu.edu/~rih/binsim/

and PHOEBE: http://phoebe-project.org/1.0/  both running on Unix/Linux/ Ubuntu and Windows platforms.

Kind regards,
Marc.

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looking for base line

Hi Marc, actually the Halpha V&R and V/R are high variable parameters with a certain periodic behavior. Please have a look to the investigation we recently published at IBVS No. 6156

http://astrospectroscopy.de/media/files/IBVS_6156-02.pdf

The source of the variability of Halpha, originating from an accretion region around the hot companion, remains unclear and the time sampling of these Halpha observations are too sparse to permit a meaningful period analysis. See our IBVS publication No. 6198:

http://ibvs.konkoly.hu/pub/ibvs/6101/6198.pdf

Best wishes, Ernst

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looking for base line

Many thanks, Ernst, highly interesting !

Indeed developing a model for V/R variability in case of VV Cep needs more measurements. Therefore the upcoming campaign for VV Cep is very important. Additionally,in case of other eclipsing binaries possible ideas applicable to the VV Cep system can be transferred. Most recent concerns a 3D modelling of the accretion disc in an eclipsing binary, here V1239 Her :

 https://arxiv.org/pdf/1702.00587.pdf

I wondered also if VV Cep has already been subject of asteroseismologic studies/recordings, as spectroscopy is limited to the line of sight observation.

Kind regards,

Marc.

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asteroseismologic studies

As far as I am informed, are there no investigation in that direction, Marc.

Ernst

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Ernst,

Ernst,

Yes OK I will send this observation next week.

Regards,

Jack

Essex UK

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Ernst,

Ernst,

I can also provide baseline observations from 2015-08-26.

Regards,

Jack

Essex UK

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your 2015-09-10 spectrum

Jack, I have evaluated your 2015-09-10 spectrum. Please have a look at the Spectro-L Yahoo-List. I think also it would be at present more important to get a reliable base line, because we are in the "hot phase on the way" to the eclipse.

Ernst

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News of VV Cep
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News of VV Cep

A revision of the analysis of the previous campaign spectra has now led to the use of the equivalent width (EW) of the red and blue components for the determination of the baseline.
See: http://www.bav-astro.eu/index.php/veraenderliche/bedeckungsveraenderlich...

To translate the German text use the Google-translater.

In view of the immediate imminent eclipse, a well-defined base line now appears for both, the peak height and the EW. At the upcoming OHP spectroscopy session in the last week of July, we will try to improve the quality of the baselines by further observations.

Ernst Pollmann

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Don´t forget to observe

Dear colleagues,
please don´t forget to observe VV Cep.
It is not exclude that the eclipse could begin some days before the calculated date August 4th.

Ernst

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Eclipse VVCEP: Don't forget to observe

 Indeed, thanks for this alert Ernst,

 Besides your message: "it is not exlude that the eclipse could begin some days before the calculated date August 4th"

 it could also be later. According to the work of Leedjärv et.al. (A&A 1999) it seems the orbital period has a tendency of increasing between the eclipses due to a possible mass transfer or mass ejection. (Approximately 1% per two former eclipses).

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1999A%26A...349..511L

Anyway we hope the weather conditions will be favourable at the very moment of the (calculated) beginning of the eclipse.

Usefull weather info with "observation location" input possibility:  

http://www.meteoblue.com  or http://www.meteovista.com/international/4220/0 

Kind regards,

Marc.